Podcast Ep025: Happy Valley Script Conversation with Lisa Holdsworth and Helen Tompson

Helen  Hello and welcome to the SXSW A Script Conversation, a podcast from the London Screenwriters Festival. I’m Helen, and this is a space where we can sit with the script itself and read it closely, and we’ll talk about what’s going on directly on the page, because if you want to write, you have to read scripts properly and regularly and as it’s part of the job. So if you haven’t read today’s script, please pause here. Go and find it and have a read, and then come back and listen to the episode. In each episode, I’ll be joined by a guest to look at one script and explore how it works through structure, character, tone, and the choices that the writer is making and what we can learn from it. As writers today, we’re looking at Happy Valley Series one, episode one, written by Sally Wainwright, and I’m joined today by Lisa.

Lisa  Oh, an absolute pleasure. so lovely to read this script again. It’s it’s aged extremely well.

Helen  Lisa, do you want to give us a very brief background on who you are as a writer.

Lisa  So I’m a Yorkshire writer, which is very much my connection with this. I know the Happy Valley very well, lived in Halifax for a little while, but I am a I am Leeds based, now, I’m a massive fan of Sally Wainwright, have been from Scott and Bailey onwards. I think she’s one of our most extraordinary writers, and I am myself a television writer, and I’ve been for the last 25 years working on shows like Call the Midwife and Robin Hood, Midsomer Murders. And I’ve had my own series in the last year on channel four called dreamers.

Helen  Congratulations. So you’re no one more qualified to have a look at the script than you, which is great. so just coming back to the script this time, because you mentioned that it was lovely to to reread it. What struck you about the script.

Lisa  How fast it gets moving? I think it was Definitely the first time I saw the episode, I felt the same way that there was very little set of where straight into Kathryn’s world, very quickly and a big bad, even though she plays a trick on us.

Lisa  and we meet him before we realize who he is. But we know who Tommy is pretty much by the end of page ten. Star. Page 11.

Helen  Yeah. So it’s quite interesting how we build up that character, because we don’t really fully know who he is until, you know, you know, we can’t put the face to the name until quite later on into, I think we’re in almost in at, near the end of act two, I think, we see him, so it’s but all of the exposition we’ve had about him has built this picture.

Lisa  Up we’re in. I mean, we’re left in no doubt that he’s a bad man. But actually, what struck me reading the script this time, everybody talks about that opening scene with the sunglasses and the and the, fire extinguisher, but actually. And it made me cry. Reading it. The scene where Catherine is talking to the headmistress and finally telling the headmistress, basically Ryan’s backstory, origin story that is a child who’s going to see through a read, and it’s incredibly economical.

Lisa  It’s, you know, it’s a monologue. But still again, we through how Katherine stops and starts what she does say and what she doesn’t say. We’re left in no doubt that this is a very bad man. And then it’s confirmed to us when we see how, he treats, after the kidnap as well.

Helen  What really struck me, reading this script and then going back and rewatching the episode, was how drawn out on the paper, on the page, how drawn out that scene is. And it’s sort of it’s sort of six pages before, you know, as that scene, which when you go by page a minute standard, that feels like a long scene. But of course on screen it is is less than two. 2.5 minutes. It’s very, very quick. And I was curious about your take on how, the writer here has, has, has taken a bold step really to, to to make a scene appear that long, versus how quickly it’s shot and just, you know what what you take away from that.

Lisa  I think it’s, you know, a very confident writer. And Sally Wainwright has every right to be a confident writer. She’s extraordinary. But the confidence of of also that every single line of both action and dialogue is working. So the, the Greek chorus of locals is telling us what the area is like, the relationship with the other police officer, their understanding that even the head office is saying they’re sending someone along, they’re going to get caught on the on the AR 58 and they’re not going to get there in time. all that stuff is every bit of it is working hard. So I really hope that Sally didn’t have to convince anybody that she needed those full six, six pages. but if she did, then I think she would have pointed to it and said, tell me, where’s where’s the where’s the fat? Where’s the spare Fletch on this? Because there isn’t any. It’s working really hard and it’s funny and it’s dramatic. And she’s done that brilliant thing of, you know, a lesser writer would have written the jeopardy of a bloke soaked in petrol with a cigarette lighter in his hand, you know, much, much darker, much, much more terrifying.

Lisa  That would have been, you know, I think cheap in the way they handled it. But Sally doesn’t. She she goes. She knows how we need to feel about Catherine. She needs incompetence. She says that she’s competent, competent and calm. And this is who I’d want takin me down if I was feeling suicidal as well. So it’s it. Again, it blew me away. Reading it this time, it’s extraordinary.

Helen  And what would your be advice be for new writers who want to tackle a scene where there’s quite a lot going on in that, in that opener of their, of their, their show or the, their film, where perhaps the temptation might be to do dual dialogue lines to demonstrate that, you know, this is a layered exchange. What would your reprise be?

Lisa  I think I mean, Sally does use some dual dialogue there, but actually it’s characters that are interacting with each other. She’s not overlapping the scenes, and she’s almost editing it on the page, which is now we go back to, she says.

Lisa  We go back to Catherine, we go back to this, you know, she knows she’s writing with a very, great sense of television because she directs as well as she writes and that she, she knows. And I’m going to cut to this, Mike curse. You go in and talking to these youths. I’m going to cut back to Catherine. So she’s almost doing a little bit of editing on on the page where she’s delineating between things. So actually, if I, if you were a very new writer and you were nervous about it, you could break it down into scenes. You could put a cut to between the different aspects of that scene that Sally doesn’t need to, because she’s going to be in control of it. but be aware of, where you want the camera to be and where the focus and whose point of view we’re seeing things from in that in the different moments and the things you can switch.

Helen  Yeah, yeah. It’s it it really strikes you when you read it on the page, doesn’t it.

Helen  And it is, it flows so well that you just, you just straight into the story in the character. And I think there were two things that really struck me about the introduction of Catherine here, and that you’ve got in the very opening, action lines. You’ve got all these active verbs that tell us about how she behaves and what kind of person she is. And then on each two we, we, we get, we actually get some exposition from her about, a little bit about herself and her, her relationship with her sister and what’s going on her home. And I think it’s, it’s there’s a fine line, isn’t there, between delivering that exposition and delivering it, in a way that’s engaging and justified. And I think Sally has done a really good job of doing that.

Lisa  I mean, it’s the upward line, isn’t it? Which, you know, I’ve got two grown up kids, one dead, two others not talking to me. It’s, you know, you I think it was in the trailers as well.

Lisa  It is a fantastic, you know, opening introduction to that situation. But again, it’s situational. It’s what why is she doing it? She’s not just doing it because she needs an information. She’s doing it to get the guy’s, confidence and and to distract him because the first thing he says is what Why? Why? At the talk. Why aren’t you talking to you? And that’s another story. Which is, again, a brilliant throwaway line. She’s got his attention, so she’s making it work, you know, work hard. That little bit of exposition in that. Yeah. She she is dropping that on us. but in the midst of chaos and things that are going on. And so it’s not just, you know, again, a lesser actor might have put it in voiceover as she was driving across the Yorkshire miles in her police car or something like that. And, and when I say like, right, that might have been my route one, that might be the thing I thought, I need to I need to drop this in.

Lisa  but it it was brilliant because she’s also telling it to a stranger. Someone who doesn’t know where exposition is awful is when people are telling each other things. You think, well, they’d already know that she’d come on and said it to a sister or, you know, someone, one of her colleagues. You get along, they probably know that. And it’s interesting, again, coming back to that scene with the headmistress. She maps out in the stage directions how much the headmistress knows about this story, because again, she’s considered. How much would she actually know? She’s heard the rumors. She’s. But now Kathleen’s film. They’re in on the absolute truth of of Ryan’s birth. and again, that’s really clever. She she’s thinking about every aspect of every character. No character is just a cipher where. I’m just going to download this at you. I’m going to I’m just going to say this to you because you’re useful. You’re a non-playing character. everybody’s got got a role in it. So.

Lisa  Yeah. And the fact that we get a call back to what happened to the guy want the same cell phone fire, and now he’s accusing her later on of police brutality because she she covered him in form. Brilliant. Just that. 360 thinking about scripts and character is, again, why she’s an extraordinary writer.

Helen  Everything sort of does seem to come full circle with her writing, which is really lovely and layered, and I think something that was really, really good about the way that we, we spent so much time understanding why she hates Tommy, why she doesn’t like him, and then what kind of person he is, so that when she does sink in in act three, there aren’t there’s no dialogue. There it is. It’s all really captured in so reaction. And it makes it so much more emotional, I think then than any kind of door him or, you know, any of that discussion is it’s really powerful that seeing me feel for her and she.

Lisa  It’s, it’s so cool because it’s cluing us in the minute.

Lisa  he’s called Tommy up at the caravan site as I remember my heart going, oh, oh, no, he’s back. Because obviously there’s been that discussion with Richard about, oh, maybe he’s moved out of the ER, he’s giving his mother’s addresses as his, his bail as part of his probation conditions, but hopefully he’s not here and you can hear it in Richard. Richard really doesn’t want to to seek him out or look for him. And so that so as an audience, we know something she doesn’t. We also know what he’s getting involved in and and and he’s a most extraordinary first episode because by the end, we are begging Catherine to get involved with Tommy because he’s doing such a terrible thing.

Helen  Yes. And you don’t even, like you don’t even question in when she’s lying in bed with Richard, questioning, you know, how she would what she would be like to to act her revenge. You’re like, yes, yes, that’s what I want for her as well. So, yeah, it’s really, really clever at pulling those emotional, emotional heartstrings.

Helen  And she does that very well across lots of her shows, if not all.

Lisa  And again, that 360 thinking, knowing what happens when she finally does confront Tommy the first time and how brutal that’s going to be. the setting up of God. Yeah, you you know, you do want her to bury him in a shallow grave in the mud. It’s a terrible human being. But that’s not the way it goes. That’s not the way it goes with violent men. And again, spoiler for anybody who’s not. Why haven’t you watched the full series? That would be my first question. The decision she makes in the final episode of the first series, and then again, call back to the final episode of the third series. I’m going to have to go back and watch it all again now. It’s just it’s just so suddenly brilliant. It it, I don’t know, a writer with that grasp on their character and that understanding of of poetic. It’s poetic justice and and truth that’s, that’s shot through that work.

Helen  Yeah. It’s very, very, very well considered, I think. And that leads us perfectly into thinking about how, Sally has tackled the different and the story threads that are going on here, because Catherine, in her work day and her family life and everything with Tommy, is just one arc that happens across the whole series. But there’s also the conflict that happens with Kevin, who’s sort of a repressed, downtrodden worker who he has been. His legacy has been stolen from him and hatches a plan, not only revenge, but a way to get the money that he needs to by setting up a kidnapping, which of course, does involve Tommy. So it all comes full circle. but structurally, I think what what surprised me was how structurally for this particular episode, when you look at inciting incident, midpoint conflict, they are more related to Kevin and they are to Catherine and I to to unpack that, a bit of you as a writers, creating a TV series, creating that series arc and that episode arc, about, you know, the reasoning behind structuring it in that particular way.

Lisa  I think it’s it’s it’s unbelievably clever because, again, in a very basic thriller, you would set up Kevin from the off, and then you probably wouldn’t meet Catherine until that encounter at the police station, Sami bridge, police station where he is, he’s about to do the. It’s so clever. He’s about to do the right thing. And then besides again, thinks he doesn’t get himself in trouble. And. And what a brilliant moment in the first episode that it could have all been avoided and started out and probably would have gotten a bit of trouble, but not a lot of trouble. And obviously, he just allows his bitterness to get into it. And what an interesting contrast. Just to go off topic, a bit interesting contrast in their characters. him as the antagonist, he’s had a pretty good hand. He lives in a fairly middle class house. Yes. You know, we’re obviously, obviously supposed to consider that, you know, with his wife being disabled, etc., but he has a place he can go on a weekend.

Lisa  It’s all very nice, but he’s still bitter. Whereas Katherine really has had a terrible hand dealt with. She’s lost her daughter, she’s lost her marriage, etc. but she’s trying to keep her spirits up. She’s trying to be nice to Ryan, even though she’s got that worries about him being dark. You know, she goes up and reads him a story even though she’s exhausted. So that brilliant mirroring, of those two characters that have had tough things happen, but not that for him, not that tough is glorious. But yeah, he would have been. We would have spent loads of time with him, looking in bathroom windows and window mirrors and considering what he’d done and all the rest of it. But again, she’s so economical in that, storytelling. He needs the money and he sees the opportunity. And, he does something so incredibly stupid and set something off that, he has no control of. And, and the minute we see the other character who’s getting involved with, you know, he’s out of his depth.

Lisa  And it’s it’s so exciting. You do feel a bit sorry for Kevin. He’s an idiot. And he should have.

Helen  He behaves. He he does something, you know, he does something wrong, which is almost like the opposite, isn’t it? Of the, you know, the the achieving your need. You get your want. But in this case, he kind of gets what he wants because he does something wrong. You know, he gets he sets up this thing and he goes into work. If he gets the offer of the of what he wanted in the first place.

Lisa  Yes. This is a I mean, that’s that’s a brilliantly clever twist as well. But if you just wear 24 hours, if he hadn’t been so nasty and bitter, than he would have got everything he ever wanted. And yeah, it’s that’s extraordinary.

Helen  So, I mean, without giving away too many spoilers for the next episode, but also not delving into it because we’re focusing on this particular pilot, being able to, set up this as I guess, the A story.

Helen  So Kevin’s journey in this particular episode is the A story at around page 4546, which is quite significant moment we that’s where Kathryn is, is lying in bed with with with Richard and she’s talking about what it would be like to meet Tommy and that that active question of, don’t you want to know what it would be like tells you, you know, especially with Richard’s like, you’re not going to go looking for him and you know that she is know that she is going to go looking for him or that she’s she’s not going to not look for him. So you know that this is the this is going to take you through to the next episode. So is it. Would you say that that that point at the beginning of the third act is roughly where you’d want to put your book for the rest of the series or the next episode, or is that something that you you could be a bit more fluid about? Because I think the instinct is probably to leave it till, you know, the last few pages.

Lisa  That’s a good question. because it’s again, without giving too many smiles for a second, second episode, actually, the way there’s a, there’s an official way for it to go about her business of looking for Tommy and Tommy, puts himself in her world ultimately, and not she. She doesn’t seek him, and she she heads on the swivel, and he says in the stage directions when she sees him outside the Chinese takeaway, it’s just because she’s doing her job as a police officer. And she spots him and she pulls the car over, and, you know, she doesn’t do her, shouldn’t throw the brakes on. She doesn’t do her 360 spin or, you know, nearly run a bus off the road because she’s desperate to get him. She again. She does it all by the book. And so when she’s fantasizing in that very weird pillow talk with Richard, I don’t think where we’re supposed to think that’s her genuine feeling. I think it’s a longing for some sort of justice, and maybe she’s going to have to take it down.

Lisa  And it’s interesting how passive Richard is. and you can almost you can almost hear the argument that split them up. And, and now he packed his bags in those months, even though they’re in bed together again, the love is there, but he’s so passive. And so what do anything that she’s. That’s where her fantasy lies. I think it’s really it’s interesting I yeah that the complexity of character is is brought through then I think and also because of how that that first episode ends, because it ends with such brutality from Tommy, even if she did, you know, hand her badge in and and do something horribly, cliched to hunt him down as a vigilante. Again, she’d be just. We know she’d be justified. But again, she doesn’t do that. She stays within the constraints of her position as a police sergeant, which I think is really interesting.

Helen  Yeah, yeah. So all of her actions are very justified, aren’t they? And because they’re, I suppose, her being so good at her job, which is very it comes across very clearly in that opening scene.

Helen  She’s very competent at her job. and she knows it inside out. She knows she’s on her own in that moment with the with the, the manner petrol that I guess she would have to go through some sort of evolution to really push against that part of herself.

Lisa  And again, I think there’s a parallel universe version of this where, again, I’m not wanting to spoil the end of the series for anyone who’s seen it, but you’re an idiot if you’ve not seen it. where she, you know, she does get an opportunity to take some justice into her, and she does have a chance to, end Tommy, which would have been a tragedy, because then we wouldn’t have had Happy Valley two and three, but, And she doesn’t take. I think when she voices that to Richard, it is. I think if he’d have reacted, master, if he’d have said, yeah, I’ll. I’ll dig the hole for you. I’ll help you then maybe that’d be a completely different series. but the fact that he does sort of say, you know, he that’s that’s a dark place to go, girl there.

Lisa  he’s a sort of Jiminy Cricket on her shoulder at that point, which I think is really interested. Yeah. Even though we’re frustrated with. I think we would have we would have been cheering if if Tommy had ended up in a shallow grave at the end of the first series.

Helen  But I it those secondary character relationships are really important at being able to provide the options for those characters to make those decisions, your protagonist to make those decisions. And even though the role of Claire and the role of Richard are more or less doing the same thing, they’re doing it from such different perspectives that it it feels like they’re offering something very different when when they say, no, you really should just kind of like let go of it and move on and, you know, don’t chase down that rabbit hole. But especially thinking about the way Claire is, Claire is very much and trying to protect you. And Richard is very much I’m trying to move on. Let’s forget this. And I think being able to use those two characters in that way, but have them come at it from different angles really also helps flesh out Catherine is a character to show that she’s got multiple dimensions, but also has different needs as well.

Helen  She doesn’t just need to be pacified, she needs to be, She needs to be loved by her sister and helped through this situation, not just pacified like Richard is trying to do.

Lisa  you saw one out in the middle of that. That question, sir. Probably pick up from there.

Helen  Yeah. So I was talking about the secondary characters and the the relationship that, Claire and Richard both have with, with Katherine and how they are effectively doing the same thing, but they are provided in different angles. So Claire is her purpose is is really about care and support. And you can see the concern that she has for her sister. Whereas Richard very much I want to kind of bury this and let’s move on. I don’t want to think about this anymore. And you know, this isn’t healthy. So it it’s it’s very interesting how, Sally Wainwright has used these two characters to, to enrich Catherine as a character herself and give us a full dimension and show us that she has different needs, and that different people provide that support.

Helen  so, yeah, I just think it’s really clever how how we got the use of these two characters in that way.

Lisa  I mean, I mean, I think it’s certainly on gender lines because, Claire, I think throughout the series you don’t see that much of this says the, the, the physical quality. I’m making pizzas. you know, I’ll look after him tonight. No judgment about her sleeping with Richard Shindell. You know, she knows what’s going on there. is there that very female energy, of, I’ll tell you the truth when you need it. but I’ll also listen when you don’t need me to talk. Whereas Richard, ultimately because he’s cheating on his knee on the on the woman he left Kathryn for. He talks about his own. But you know, when Catherine’s making it clear she doesn’t really want to talk to him before we know that he’s the ex. when she’s he, you know, drops on her, I’m about to get sacked. And her media story, he’s a taker.

Lisa  Clare, I think, will have been in the past because of her heroin addiction, where she’s a giver. She’s trying to repay her debt to to Catherine. So I think he’s very interesting how that split along the the gendered line to, you know, the two people who probably know Catherine best and he’s and as you find out in the second episode, her son as well, I think he’s been a selfish little. So I remember very clearly thinking, the first time I saw it was selfish little bugger. and so Catherine’s dealing with, some selfish men in her life.

Helen  Yes. She is. and it’s a it’s certainly a theme that Sally is leaning into more and more with her writing, which is a real pleasure to engage with. And Riot Women was was definitely one of my highlights of last year of watching that, I love that. so just sort of focusing a bit on, Sally as a, as a regional writer. So she really leans into the, the heritage of, of, of Yorkshire, as she has with Happy Valley last hanger in Halifax, riot women and, you know, many other things.

Helen  And I what struck me when I was reading the script, apart from maybe some of the dialect, the colloquialisms and contractions. Are what I was wondering about with this particular script and whether or not, it holds a sense of place because of the story, or is the message really you can take the story and do it anywhere, but by doing it somewhere like Yorkshire, you’re really giving an opportunity for representation And just to show us a different type of a different type of culture. and I was curious about your take on that as you were from the region.

Lisa  I am, I well, I think what Sally does is she’s very unromantic about it. You know, it’s not, the glorious Mars or anything. Even though when people watch her shows, when they’re sitting in Yorkshire, they talk about how amazing the locations are, particularly on something like Last Tango in Halifax. But she’s she’s not romanticizing it in any way, shape or form. It is, a hilly, inhospitable, sometimes hard to get to places Halifax, Hebden Bridge as well.

Lisa  And sadly, bridge is very difficult to drive around if you’ve ever had had the misfortune to do that. and there are some incredibly, rundown areas of it which she again doesn’t shy away of watching. This is not heritage television. It’s not trying to be Wuthering Heights or anything like that. And, you know, Yorkshire is incredibly fortunate in that it’s portrayed on screen pretty much every night of the week. But go to channel five. It’s all creatures great and small, the Yorkshire that, Yorkshire this, Yorkshire that, etc. and most of it is how wonderfully lucky we are to live in in God’s own country, which I absolutely am. But also it has a dark side. And I think that’s where Sally again, it would have been really easy for her to write something pretty. She could have had Nevison on a hotel or something like that. He doesn’t, even if he doesn’t, is defined what he does. It’s an engineering company. And that’s as much as we know. And there’s lots of industrial stuff around the Calder Valley.

Lisa  and so that’s, that’s what makes her stand apart. She’s she’s not selling as Yorkshire in any where she’s telling me. Telling me like this.

Helen  Yeah. And it’s so interesting shift when you think about some of the shows that they would do in, in places, that are less traditionally filmed in, I know, you know, from living in the southwest, there’s, there’s a number of towns and villages that have have a taint of perhaps being not, as you know, idyllic on one side and not so idyllic on the other. And temptation for most people is to, you know, show it, show the best side, and things like this. And, and, shows like The Responder, we’re starting to see a slightly truer, more relatable side of things. which also highlights quite a lot of, social need as well, and brings that into a, into a conversation, which is it’s very refreshing to see and I hope that there’s more of that, is that if you think about, like Last Tango in Halifax, that one probably wasn’t a bit more chocolate box in comparison.

Helen  Yeah. so. Yeah, it’s it’s it’s a very refreshing way of looking at it. But I guess often crime, it’s a genre isn’t going to always be this, acquirer esque or Marple sort of, beautiful aesthetics. It is going to lend itself.

Lisa  And I think, I think the BBC sold series three. this is not causing crime and it’s not in any way, shape or form. And and there is, you know, if you live in a, a place or a city, there is a, certainly for me, a desire to, to show its best side and, and to say, this is, you know, I’ve, there’s a reason I’ve chosen to live here. And in fairness, I believe that Sally wasn’t living in Halifax at the time. She wrote a series warm. I think she lives in Richmond and now, which is is part of the cul de valley. but there’s a sense of sometimes it can be accused of disloyalty. If you’re showing a side of a city that is is definitely there.

Lisa  But, you know, we don’t talk about it. So, you know, I think probably a damned representation of Bradford Verdi, for example, was incredibly gritty. And I’m sure there were some people who were uncomfortable with it because, you know, you want the Qataris to come and we’re going to be City of Culture this year and all that kind of thing. So, I cannot imagine Sally having any truck with that kind of chocolate box, touristy kind of stuff. She’s she’s a dramatist, not the tourist blurb, that’s for sure.

Helen  Oh, well, I am all for it. I think it’s very, very good to to see these areas represented and the people that live in them every day in their lives represented, even if sometimes it’s a bit extreme, but it’s very refreshing to say the least. just before we sort of close off, I just wondered if there was any any other thoughts that you had on this particular script or anything you wanted to point out, or any advice that you’d have for a writer who may be writing something in this vein, either regional or in the genre.

Lisa  I think, you know, again, and I’ve been lucky enough to to see Sally interviewed about her writing. She writes something that, she believes in. That is her voice. She doesn’t compromise on her voice whatsoever, whether, you know, she has written a range of stuff for him. it’s really worth seeking out spark House, which was her modern day adaptation of Wuthering Heights. Much better, I would venture, than the current version of Wuthering Heights. Probably a bit more on point. You know, she’s done the, you know, in the Bronte, she’s done, period drama with, to walk invisible and and renegade. Now, she bought the things we love from her art are her contemporary police dramas. but she’s I think she’s a masterclass because. And I started thinking about the first episode of Last Tango in Halifax, the. Where she gets those stories to Malta. When you hear the pitch for Last Tango and how you expect, it’ll take about three episodes for the elderly couple. At the heart of it, to get round to getting married, it’ll be that kind of thing and that they’re virtually married by the end of the first episode.

Lisa  They’re together. and so that instinct of, you know, I, I would like to ask her and I’d probably wouldn’t answer. Are there longer versions of this story where you start much, much earlier and are you moving that into that backstory? That’s backstory. You know, you there could have been an amazing, opening, pre title sequence and happy Valley of of Richard finding the daughter of, you know, Tommy B going down for something else. Not for his most hideous crimes, those kind of things. He could have set it up like that. But she, she chose to just get into the present day get let’s get to the now And I think that for newer writers and, you know, I’ve read lots of new writers scripts, and the note I invariably give is you need to get into the story quicker. Just just get there, get to your inciting incident, get to, the bit that’s actually interesting. Do the setup in amongst and get cracking with the story. and I think there’s no better example than Sally Wainwright’s writing.

Helen  Yeah, I think you’re spot on there. And, you know, speaking of her voice, I picked out a line that I just absolutely loved. It’s from scene 11. So we’re sort of just just at the beginning of act two, and she is, having dinner with Richard. and it says here, Catherine remains preoccupied, but it hasn’t affected her appetite. Perhaps she’s wound up or upset. She eats more or faster. I would, and I just loved that. And I just thought, you know, that that’s. It’s almost unfiltered. It’s kind of she’s thinking as she’s writing, but it it it’s also because I, I know that there’s, there’s a lot that we’re told a lot as new writers that, you know, you need to make sure that if it if you can’t film it, don’t put it in there. And, and if the temptation to take something like that out, I think. But of course this is her voice. So maybe maybe Sally’s got a bit of license at this point in her career to be able to write things like that in there, but it’s also, okay, if I would, then I’m thinking, well, yeah, actually, maybe I agree with that.

Helen  I would too. And it, you know, instantly I can relate to the character and what she’s feeling in that moment more. so I loved it.

Lisa  I think one of the, one of the important things when you write is reading scripts is to see how it’s a working document. So everything on there is helping whoever picks it, whether it is, production design that knows they’re going to have to, you know, make some food that’s edible because we’re going to want to see her eat. But also for, the actors to know, I’m just I’m giving you a bit of background so that your instinct might be to pick at your food because you’re upset in this scene. But I don’t want you to do that. I want you to do this. And I’m going to tell you why. I’m going to give you the information you need. So I get an absolutely dark fill your stage directions full of stuff that we don’t need. But if I’m thinking about the script as a working document and what the actor needs in that moment, again, she’s kind of directing on the page because she might sit down, you know, someone else who directed those episodes.

Lisa  You might’ve sat down with them and said, this is why I want to eat quickly. Can you make sure that happens? Oh, and I think pretty much every writer has ever had their work produced may have had the experience where she’s written it and it’s been ignored. and so she’s making Double plus positive that what she wants to see on that screen is going to end up there.

Helen  Yeah, that’s really good. That’s brilliant advice. Alisa, thank you so much. I feel like we could have sat here unpicking all of Sally’s work for hours. It’s been such a rich conversation. Thank you very much. And I think.

Multiple Speakers  My absolute pleasure.

Helen  Yeah, well, what really stays with me is just how much the script does through the behavior, the voice and how and it’s specificity as well. And it really gets us on side very quickly without over explaining. It is a masterclass. You are right. so if you’re listening as a writer, go back to the script and have a look again at those opening pages and the things that we’ve discussed.

Helen  Look what’s doing, doing the work, what’s what’s working for all of us, and have a look at what you can learn from that particular script. And of course, have a look at some of the others as well that Sally has written. Thank you so much for listening to the SC from the London Screenwriters Festival. We’ll be back with another script and another guest another time. See you then.